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Wednesday, March 25th, 2009

157 Comments

Don’t Fry Your Customers With This Tactic

Hello there! If you are new here, you might want to subscribe to the RSS feed for updates on this topic.

Yesterday, Ed Dale posted an article to his blog that kind of struck me. In it, Ed submits that hard-sell marketing is better than soft-sell, even when people are jaded and annoyed with such aggressive approaches.

If you think I’m saying this because I prefer soft-sell approaches, think again.

The reason it struck me is that, and with all due respect to Ed, his post may be a tad misleading.

I agree with the fact that people today are annoyed, jaded, and even frustrated when buying products online — specifically, products in the Internet marketing industry. But I don’t think people are annoyed with hard-sell marketing at all.

They’re annoyed with something else entirely.

Before I dive in, please understand that Ed Dale and I are friends.

In fact, when Ed posted about his recent decision to dump all his friends on Facebook and promote a “fan page” instead, not only was I one of the first ones to agree with him and applaud him, but also I followed in his footsteps.

My comments here have nothing to do with Ed Dale as a person or even as a marketer. They are strictly my opinions on the strategy he pointed out and apparently endorsed.

First, to put this in proper context, let me quote a few passages from Ed’s article…

It’s a bit simplistic to describe like this but it’s the online equivalent of “Do you want Fries with that”

Now here’s the thing. Some people get SUPER annoyed when (increasingly a baby boomer) McDonalds server asks this question.

Your like, “Dude, if I wanted the Fries with that, I would have ordered them!!!!”

If this is sooo annoying – why do they keep doing it?

IT WORKS.

It works really, really well.

Really, Really, Really, Really with sugar on top well.

“Upselling” and “Downselling” (as we say in the biz ) works (…).

First off, I totally agree with this statement.

If you’ve been around this blog for some time, you’ve probably seen my wife’s video on Upsells, Downsells, And One-Time Offers in which she describes the process.

Upselling is not only an important aspect of marketing and particularly Internet marketing, but it’s also one that so many marketers fail to capitalize on. Marketers are leaving an insane load of cash on the table by not asking their customers to buy more.

Some of our students have literally doubled and even tripled their income by simply adding an upsell offer to their sales funnel, which took only minutes to implement.

Jay Abraham, one of the world’s most prolific marketing experts, is often quoted as saying there are only three ways to increase your business.

Increasing the number,
Increasing the frequency,
Or increasing the size of purchases.

The first one involves getting new clients. That’s just good old marketing. You want to find new, hungry prospects who will buy your products for the first time.

The second is new purchases from the same client base. It’s making follow-up and additional offers to your current customers, and getting them to keep buying from you.

The last part is the one people often miss the boat on. It’s upselling, where you get people to buy more or increase the size of their orders as they are buying from you.

Simple enough, right?

The specific issue I have with Ed’s article is not the premise but the analogy he used. Upselling is indeed akin to a McDonald’s server asking, “Do you want fries with that?” And it’s certainly something we should incorporate in our offers.

I also agree with Ed that the market is definitely annoyed and jaded.

But the issue I have is that the market is not annoyed with upsells as Ed Dale seems to imply. It’s annoyed with the type of upsell offers, which has more to do with withholding your customer’s order than it is with just asking them to buy more.

Huge difference, here.

For example, my wife wrote Internet Marketing Sins a few months ago, in which she covers 15 of the most egregious sins perpetrated by online marketers. In it, she covers this particular sin in great detail in a chapter entitled “Upsell Hell.”

(I prefer to call it “Upsell Jail,” because that is precisely what it feels like when one stumbles onto an offer of this kind. You feel helplessly locked in, unable to break out.)

As my wife noted so well, the issue is about holding the customer — i.e., their credit card information, their money, and yes, even their order — hostage.

The process works this way.

A customer comes to a website, reads the copy, and decides to buy the product. She clicks on the order button, fills in the credit card details, and submits the order form.

But before accessing the product she just ordered, she’s presented with an upsell offer.

She’s a bit annoyed, but it’s shadowed by the fact that she’s quite excited about her original order. So she takes the time to read the additional offer, decides she’s not interested, and clicks on “no thanks” (hopefully, when such an option exists).

The process so far is not that bad. But here’s the rub…

If she stumbles onto an offer by some very aggressive marketer, things unfortunately don’t stop there. Before she can access or download her product, even before she receives a confirmation that her payment went through successfully, she’s hit with another upsell offer. And then another, and another, and another.

In some cases, we’re talking three, five, eight, even 10 upsell offers or more!

Annoying? You bet!

Again, the issue has nothing to do with making an upsell offer. If it were me, I would have made the offer before the customer entered their credit card details (it’s no different than adding a product to a shopping cart), or after they’ve reached the confirmation page.

But to force a customer to wade through a barrage of upsell offers while holding their order — and their money — hostage is, in my opinion, the real problem, here.

Think about it.

The customer purchased your product after they have built up enough trust and confidence in you to buy what you originally offered. They probably took a long time to read your copy, perhaps even watched your video, looked you up on the web, and, with excitement mixed with a bit of trepidation, decided to go ahead.

However, when you hit them over the head again and again with a flurry of upsell offers, there’s no question the consumer will doubt you, get annoyed, never buy from you again, even hate you, or worse yet, tell others about you.

As I said at the beginning of this post, I’m a fan of aggressive marketing. I believe that you must ask for the order, and ask for it as many times as possible. In fact, I don’t mind marketers who are even more aggressive than I am.

But the sentiment some of these marketers share is what scares me somewhat.

Most of these aggressive marketers don’t care. Why? Because during these huge, mega-launches, these “drive-by” marketers only intend to sell one-hit products (i.e., not evergreen, long-term products with sustainable growth).

Their sole aim is to milk as many prospects as possible for all they can during a finite period of time. Sadly, some of them don’t even care if their customers ever buy again.

As one marketer called it, it’s a “churn and burn” mentality.

Admittedly, one reason may be because many of these marketers offer continuity programs, which on the surface may appear as a long-term strategy. (However, some continuity offers are forced in the backend of the same, huge launches.)

Plus, many of their products are indeed of high quality and very good.

But another analogy that comes to mind is that of snake oil salesmen. The parallel is ostensibly there. Snake oil salesmen drive into town, sell their entire lot as fast as they can, and skip town as soon as they’re done.

In fact, this brings me to another issue Ed brought up in his post. Ed said this…

Yet in this so called “depressed” (more on this in a minute) economy – Internet Marketing stuff is being sold at RECORD numbers.

Record numbers?

Yes, if you want to count unit sales. And during mega-launches where everyone and their neighbor’s pet parrot is emailing you with the same offer, it’s no wonder that such sales incur huge, record-breaking numbers.

But in this case, as it is in many cases of late, the offer is cheap or even free — the purpose being to force people onto a continuity program. Let’s not forget affiliate commissions for the launch and on the recurring income afterwards.

So record-breaking sales doesn’t necessarily translate into record-breaking profits.

(That’s a whole different issue for another day, although I must add that some marketers are overt and clear about their backend continuity offers. They may be forced continuity, which is perfectly fine, but they’re not hidden or slipped under the radar.)

So the numbers are there, I agree.

However, what about long-term, residual income? What about Jay Abraham’s point #2, “frequency of purchases?” Well, that’s a non-issue for many marketers because their clients are forced onto a continuity program, anyway.

But will they buy more from the same marketer? Of their own volition?

Maybe. Maybe not.

But I daresay, retention of their initial order, if these marketers don’t go out of their way to coddle those customers sufficiently, or at least offer excellent — not average or above average, but truly excellent — content, will likely suffer.

So when some marketers purport to make millions with their sales on launch day, are they actually talking about gross revenue? Or are they talking about unit sales or their predicted revenue over the long term based on 100% retention of their new customers?

Something to think about.

As Frank Kern’s grandfather once said to him (from a presentation Frank gave at a seminar) when he used to work in his grandfather’s used-car business, after Frank was all excited about a sale he made that wasn’t quite finalized…

“It ain’t sold ’til you got the money!”

Finally, let me come back to the analogy Ed Dale made. To me, asking “Want fries with that?” is a wrong analogy. A better one is, after you asked for a burger the server says:

“A burger? Sure, that’s $3.00.” (You hand over a $20 bill.) The server, holding your burger in one hand and your $20 in the other, continues:

“Now that you’ve given me $20, how about fries with that? No? How about an apple pie? No? Then how about an extra burger for only half off, and you better decide now because this is the only time I’m making you this special offer!”

Remember, you’re hungry. You paid for the burger. You see the server holding both your change and your burger, almost taunting you. Naturally, you’re getting annoyed by now. Just when you think you’re finally getting your food, the server quips:

“OK then, I know you’re hungry, but before I give you your burger and your change back, may I interest you in our burger-of-the-month club?”

Can you see the frustration?

So when a marketer says, “It works!” I cringe. Why? Because they’re using results — specifically, they’re using superficial, short term, prediction-based, best-case-scenario results — to justify their marketing efforts.

Well, of course it works! It’s no different than saying “Want money? Go rob a bank! Why? Because it works!” Needless to say, when you hold someone hostage at gun point asking for their money, you bet that it works.

Now, I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say:

“But Michel, isn’t your analogy extreme and just as far off as the fast-food one?”

Sure, my analogy may be a little extreme. What some of these marketers do may be entirely legal and, unlike a bank robbery, no one can get physically hurt.

But when it comes to the ethics of the thing, it’s not that much different. Because, while it may be legal, saying that “it works” when it has no choice but to work because you’re forcing it to, then it’s not so far off the mark.

In short, it may be legal but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right.

Plus, the bank analogy is dead-on in other ways, too. For example, unless that bank’s security has been reinforced, consumer confidence restored, and the bank robber apprehended, chances are those consumers will never go back to that bank.

They’ll likely close their accounts and take their money elsewhere.

About the Author

Michel Fortin is a direct response copywriter, author, speaker, and consultant. Visit his blog and signup free to get tested conversion strategies and response-boosting tips by email, along with blog updates, news, and more! Go now to http://michelfortin.com. While you're at it, follow him on Twitter.

Category: Opinion

Tags: continuity, downsell, ethics, Internet, one-time offer, salesletter, upsell

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http://JohnRitz.com/ John Ritz

Michel,

All I can say, like many others have, is wwwellllllllll said, my friend!

(You DO have a way of getting right to the heart of the matter, don’t you?

Cheers,

John
http://JohnRitz.com John Ritz

Michel,

All I can say, like many others have, is wwwellllllllll said, my friend!

(You DO have a way of getting right to the heart of the matter, don’t you?

Cheers,

John
http://foliovision.com/weblog Alec

Michel and Ed,

What you are promoting – the constant upselling and cross selling does not work long term. I mean really long term.

If it did, every major corporation would be doing it. But most don’t.

Why not?

It angers people in the end.

So almost all of you IM wizards are just flash in the pan. There are some big names from the beginning of IMing with 100,000s who couldn’t get in on a JV these days.

Why? Because they pounded the hell out of those lists and offered dubious products of their own and promoted more crap.

I suspect most of the current crop will go down that same road. Unless you offering true value at reasonable prices, you are blackening your reputation.

And reputation is all that you have in this world.

Admiral Nige is right on:

Selling some one a product for 25$ then asking them for 100$ does not work for long term business growth. It may work in small percentage terms but if you go to any multi national business with tens of millions of customers and ask them they will tell you it does not.

as is Sylvie when she talks about lifetime value:

Yes, your short term statistics will reflect a decrease in sales. But I am not interested in short term, immediate gratification. I’m interested in long term, committed relationships with my customers, because in the end, the numbers always win when you think about the LIFETIME value of the customer who is happy, satisfied, trusts you, and looks forward to every product you create.

Like many of the others here, I can’t tell you how many lists I’ve unsubscribed to this year. You’ve all lost your cashfrenzied minds.

Why don’t big businesses act like you gonzo marketers? Because they plan to be here in 10 years. Most of them are not slash and burn like you lot.
http://foliovision.com/weblog Alec

Michel and Ed,

What you are promoting – the constant upselling and cross selling does not work long term. I mean really long term.

If it did, every major corporation would be doing it. But most don’t.

Why not?

It angers people in the end.

So almost all of you IM wizards are just flash in the pan. There are some big names from the beginning of IMing with 100,000s who couldn’t get in on a JV these days.

Why? Because they pounded the hell out of those lists and offered dubious products of their own and promoted more crap.

I suspect most of the current crop will go down that same road. Unless you offering true value at reasonable prices, you are blackening your reputation.

And reputation is all that you have in this world.

Admiral Nige is right on:

Selling some one a product for 25$ then asking them for 100$ does not work for long term business growth. It may work in small percentage terms but if you go to any multi national business with tens of millions of customers and ask them they will tell you it does not.

as is Sylvie when she talks about lifetime value:

Yes, your short term statistics will reflect a decrease in sales. But I am not interested in short term, immediate gratification. I’m interested in long term, committed relationships with my customers, because in the end, the numbers always win when you think about the LIFETIME value of the customer who is happy, satisfied, trusts you, and looks forward to every product you create.

Like many of the others here, I can’t tell you how many lists I’ve unsubscribed to this year. You’ve all lost your cashfrenzied minds.

Why don’t big businesses act like you gonzo marketers? Because they plan to be here in 10 years. Most of them are not slash and burn like you lot.
http://www.MichelFortin.com Michel Fortin

Originally Posted By Will
Here’s an analogy for us drummers. Would you rather get up on stage and play every single song your band has ever written, or would you rather get up and play a short, solid set of songs, leave the stage, only to have the crowd chanting for an encore? I know what I would rather and I know which crowd would be more likely to WANT to come and see me play again.

Ooooh, I love it!
http://www.michelfortin.com Michel Fortin

Originally Posted By Will
Here’s an analogy for us drummers. Would you rather get up on stage and play every single song your band has ever written, or would you rather get up and play a short, solid set of songs, leave the stage, only to have the crowd chanting for an encore? I know what I would rather and I know which crowd would be more likely to WANT to come and see me play again.

Ooooh, I love it!
http://marketersboard.com/ Sylvie Fortin

@Kevin Finney – I do love a great debate, when intelligent people discuss issues in an open, respectful manner. Kevin, you and I may not agree on the issue of the day, but it is wonderfully refreshing that you and I can disagree with respect and dignity.

Thank you for that!

And with that said, I of course, respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted By Kevin Finney
I don’t want a long-term relationship with ever customer. (this might explain why I am not as good at social media as Ed Dale)

Perhaps your definition of long term relationship and my definition are different.

I am referring to “relationship” as one where a qualified customer buys one or more products from me, consumes it, takes action on what I’m teaching, then buys more products from me once he or she is ready for them, and then repeats this process multiple times for many years.

This, of course, applies specifically to my market, but you get the gist.

In the case of my market, I teach how to build a stable, reliable business, using online tools and techniques. It is in my own best interest that I teach this correctly and do whatever I can to encourage people to take action and do what they need to do to generate income for themselves. Why? Because the sooner I can get them making real money, the more money they will have to spend on more training.

It’s simple math. In my market, It serves me and my customers well for us to have a long term relationship, because it means it is mutually profitable.

If, on the other hand, I was to use the hit and run methods I see far too often, my methods would have to change, I would be forced to use “desperation selling” tactics, because I would specifically want to get customers who never consume my products at all.

I make this point in the sins report. I believe that most marketers who use desperation selling tactics are doing it because they don’t necessarily want their customers to consume their product at all. They want them to buy them fast (before their electronic downloads are all “gone”) and never crack it open when they get it.

This ensures that the marketer is never revealed as a bad teacher. The consumer never takes action or uses the “system”, thus finding out it doesn’t work, is a bad idea, and should never have been taught.

Yes, snake oil. The big promises that don’t deliver, but the salesmen are long gone before anyone has the chance to use it.

OK, I’m rambling, but you get the point, right?

My version of long term relationship is better described as a repeat customer, one who likes what I sell today, and will buy what I sell tomorrow also.

It is also our job to give value before the purchase. This is the whole point of “moving the free line”. Build confidence and trust before the prospect makes a financial decision.

Yes, true, but what I’ve seen lately is a really bad implementation of the concept.

People get happy and excited during the “free line” process, develop trust, decide to purchase when the product comes out, and as soon as they’ve purchased, they are hammered with the upsell hell process.

Now they are immediately flooded with buyer’s remorse…feeling stupid for having fallen for it yet again. You and I both know that a large quantity of buyers immediately question their decision the moment they hit “submit”, so why on earth would we want to exacerbate that feeling by slamming them with annoyance the moment they feel most vulnerable?

There are easier and more effective ways to upsell, is all I’m saying. Ways we can still sell as much, if not more, products to customers happy to buy them and happy AFTER they buy as well.

When I go through the upsell hell processes desperately, I often screen capture the sales messages, and immediately annotate my notes to the .jpg’s. I learn as much about a marketer by how he/she delivers her sales process, as I would by studying their products.

Kevin, I think you nailed the real problem here, and the entire reason you and I are seeing things differently.

You purchase with a completely different mindset. When YOU buy products that are being sold using these tactics, you are thinking like a salesman, NOT like 98% of the planet. You are watching the process with interest, you aren’t “experiencing it” from the typical consumer’s point of view.

I think you may need to take off your own marketer’s hat for a moment and put on the customer’s hat for a while. Let yourself think like the typical customer. See it from their point of view.

When I say that people feel “desperation” while going through the process, I do not refer to myself personally. No salesman, no pitching, no marketing process has ever made me feel bad. I, like you, love watching the sales process, and I learn a great deal from all of it, good and bad.

But I am not speaking for me. I am speaking for our customers, most of which do not enjoy the marketing process at all.

I understand them because I step away from my own perspective long enough to see it from their point of view.

You say “Reframe your perspective, and all desperation will leave you.”

True, but you expect too much from your customers. You are demanding that they fundamentally change who they are, and what I’m saying is that it is your responsibility to make your marketing message, sales process, and ultimately your products, match your customers…rather than trying to force THEM to accept your preferences.

So, I promise, here and now, I will read the rest of http://www.internetmarketingsins.com and implement your suggestions in a test, and see if my capitalistic greed has indelibly corrupted my viewpoint. Who knows, you’ve done this longer than I have, maybe you are right, maybe….

Awesome! We may win you over yet!

Give it a shot. Test it out. And remember that a truly scientific test is done for a long period of time, not short term. I think you’ll see exactly what I mean.

Remember also that my suggestions are not based on my own personal opinions. They are based on having watched hundreds of marketers, marketers I’ve worked with in my business, marketers who were/are clients of mine, in hundreds of different niches (not just IM).

Most marketers teach from their own perspective, based on what they, and their tiny circle of buddies do. That’s all well and good, except it is very myopic.

I see things from an eagle eye view…watching MANY marketers behind the scenes. It’s a great perspective.
http://www.internetmarketingsins.com Sylvie Fortin

@Kevin Finney – I do love a great debate, when intelligent people discuss issues in an open, respectful manner. Kevin, you and I may not agree on the issue of the day, but it is wonderfully refreshing that you and I can disagree with respect and dignity.

Thank you for that!

And with that said, I of course, respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted By Kevin Finney
I don’t want a long-term relationship with ever customer. (this might explain why I am not as good at social media as Ed Dale)

Perhaps your definition of long term relationship and my definition are different.

I am referring to “relationship” as one where a qualified customer buys one or more products from me, consumes it, takes action on what I’m teaching, then buys more products from me once he or she is ready for them, and then repeats this process multiple times for many years.

This, of course, applies specifically to my market, but you get the gist.

In the case of my market, I teach how to build a stable, reliable business, using online tools and techniques. It is in my own best interest that I teach this correctly and do whatever I can to encourage people to take action and do what they need to do to generate income for themselves. Why? Because the sooner I can get them making real money, the more money they will have to spend on more training.

It’s simple math. In my market, It serves me and my customers well for us to have a long term relationship, because it means it is mutually profitable.

If, on the other hand, I was to use the hit and run methods I see far too often, my methods would have to change, I would be forced to use “desperation selling” tactics, because I would specifically want to get customers who never consume my products at all.

I make this point in the sins report. I believe that most marketers who use desperation selling tactics are doing it because they don’t necessarily want their customers to consume their product at all. They want them to buy them fast (before their electronic downloads are all “gone”) and never crack it open when they get it.

This ensures that the marketer is never revealed as a bad teacher. The consumer never takes action or uses the “system”, thus finding out it doesn’t work, is a bad idea, and should never have been taught.

Yes, snake oil. The big promises that don’t deliver, but the salesmen are long gone before anyone has the chance to use it.

OK, I’m rambling, but you get the point, right?

My version of long term relationship is better described as a repeat customer, one who likes what I sell today, and will buy what I sell tomorrow also.

It is also our job to give value before the purchase. This is the whole point of “moving the free line”. Build confidence and trust before the prospect makes a financial decision.

Yes, true, but what I’ve seen lately is a really bad implementation of the concept.

People get happy and excited during the “free line” process, develop trust, decide to purchase when the product comes out, and as soon as they’ve purchased, they are hammered with the upsell hell process.

Now they are immediately flooded with buyer’s remorse…feeling stupid for having fallen for it yet again. You and I both know that a large quantity of buyers immediately question their decision the moment they hit “submit”, so why on earth would we want to exacerbate that feeling by slamming them with annoyance the moment they feel most vulnerable?

There are easier and more effective ways to upsell, is all I’m saying. Ways we can still sell as much, if not more, products to customers happy to buy them and happy AFTER they buy as well.

When I go through the upsell hell processes desperately, I often screen capture the sales messages, and immediately annotate my notes to the .jpg’s. I learn as much about a marketer by how he/she delivers her sales process, as I would by studying their products.

Kevin, I think you nailed the real problem here, and the entire reason you and I are seeing things differently.

You purchase with a completely different mindset. When YOU buy products that are being sold using these tactics, you are thinking like a salesman, NOT like 98% of the planet. You are watching the process with interest, you aren’t “experiencing it” from the typical consumer’s point of view.

I think you may need to take off your own marketer’s hat for a moment and put on the customer’s hat for a while. Let yourself think like the typical customer. See it from their point of view.

When I say that people feel “desperation” while going through the process, I do not refer to myself personally. No salesman, no pitching, no marketing process has ever made me feel bad. I, like you, love watching the sales process, and I learn a great deal from all of it, good and bad.

But I am not speaking for me. I am speaking for our customers, most of which do not enjoy the marketing process at all.

I understand them because I step away from my own perspective long enough to see it from their point of view.

You say “Reframe your perspective, and all desperation will leave you.”

True, but you expect too much from your customers. You are demanding that they fundamentally change who they are, and what I’m saying is that it is your responsibility to make your marketing message, sales process, and ultimately your products, match your customers…rather than trying to force THEM to accept your preferences.

So, I promise, here and now, I will read the rest of http://www.internetmarketingsins.com and implement your suggestions in a test, and see if my capitalistic greed has indelibly corrupted my viewpoint. Who knows, you’ve done this longer than I have, maybe you are right, maybe….

Awesome! We may win you over yet!

Give it a shot. Test it out. And remember that a truly scientific test is done for a long period of time, not short term. I think you’ll see exactly what I mean.

Remember also that my suggestions are not based on my own personal opinions. They are based on having watched hundreds of marketers, marketers I’ve worked with in my business, marketers who were/are clients of mine, in hundreds of different niches (not just IM).

Most marketers teach from their own perspective, based on what they, and their tiny circle of buddies do. That’s all well and good, except it is very myopic.

I see things from an eagle eye view…watching MANY marketers behind the scenes. It’s a great perspective.
http://www.internetmarketingsins.com Sylvie Fortin

Just thought of yet another analogy for the true reasons why marketers resort to these types of tactics. This one may seem odd, but bear with me.

It’s all about desiring immediate gratification…the immediate sales numbers, the big ego boost, the huge launches that rage hot and fierce and then die a fast death. The bragging rights about how much he/she made the last time they sold the Product Du Jour.

Babies demand instant gratification. They scream for it. They crave attention. They want their bottle NOW. They don’t understand patience. They don’t understand the long term or the future. For babies, it’s all about the here and now. Today. NOW, NOW, NOW.

But then we grow up. We learn that delayed gratification and planning ahead has a great deal of value. We know that we must work steadily towards our ultimate goals. We patiently plan and steadily head in the direction that best suits our long term goals.

That’s what it means to be an adult. ALL true success comes to you only if you are willing to delay your rewards and wait for better things to come.

I think it’s time the IM community grows up.
http://marketersboard.com/ Sylvie Fortin

Just thought of yet another analogy for the true reasons why marketers resort to these types of tactics. This one may seem odd, but bear with me.

It’s all about desiring immediate gratification…the immediate sales numbers, the big ego boost, the huge launches that rage hot and fierce and then die a fast death. The bragging rights about how much he/she made the last time they sold the Product Du Jour.

Babies demand instant gratification. They scream for it. They crave attention. They want their bottle NOW. They don’t understand patience. They don’t understand the long term or the future. For babies, it’s all about the here and now. Today. NOW, NOW, NOW.

But then we grow up. We learn that delayed gratification and planning ahead has a great deal of value. We know that we must work steadily towards our ultimate goals. We patiently plan and steadily head in the direction that best suits our long term goals.

That’s what it means to be an adult. ALL true success comes to you only if you are willing to delay your rewards and wait for better things to come.

I think it’s time the IM community grows up.
http://www.ryanhealy.com/ Ryan Healy

Based on my perspective as an “insider” in the industry, I have sorted Internet marketers into a couple of categories:

The Churn ‘em and Burn ‘em Group (Whatever works)
The Opportunistic Group (Whatever works, within limits)
The Ethical Group (The ends don’t justify the means)

Some of those who churn ‘em and burn ‘em do so because they have VERY high monthly overhead costs… and they’ve got to make [insert large sum of money here] just to make it to next month.

I think there will always be the temptation to do “whatever works” in the name of profit. Personally, I’ve found myself at many ethical crossroads as a result of what I’ve been asked to write. The answers are not always clear or easy.

Anyway, thanks for writing this. Good to hear somebody stand up for taking “the high road” in marketing tactics.

Ryan
http://www.ryanhealy.com Ryan Healy

Based on my perspective as an “insider” in the industry, I have sorted Internet marketers into a couple of categories:

The Churn ‘em and Burn ‘em Group (Whatever works)
The Opportunistic Group (Whatever works, within limits)
The Ethical Group (The ends don’t justify the means)

Some of those who churn ‘em and burn ‘em do so because they have VERY high monthly overhead costs… and they’ve got to make [insert large sum of money here] just to make it to next month.

I think there will always be the temptation to do “whatever works” in the name of profit. Personally, I’ve found myself at many ethical crossroads as a result of what I’ve been asked to write. The answers are not always clear or easy.

Anyway, thanks for writing this. Good to hear somebody stand up for taking “the high road” in marketing tactics.

Ryan
http://www.planbreview.com/ Karen

Originally Posted By Sylvie Fortin

I think it’s time the IM community grows up.

SO WELL SAID, Sylvie!

Let’s grow up, IM’ers and do this right. There ARE lots of ways to make money online, afterall.

I’m tired of tactics that lure in the masses, setting expectations high and not delivering. They aren’t actually scams, but they were oversold to people who didn’t know what they were buying.

Let’s clean up the IM business voluntarily and earn some respect. This business is NOT for everyone. Just because SELLS does NOT make it RIGHT.
http://www.planbreview.com Karen

Originally Posted By Sylvie Fortin

I think it’s time the IM community grows up.

SO WELL SAID, Sylvie!

Let’s grow up, IM’ers and do this right. There ARE lots of ways to make money online, afterall.

I’m tired of tactics that lure in the masses, setting expectations high and not delivering. They aren’t actually scams, but they were oversold to people who didn’t know what they were buying.

Let’s clean up the IM business voluntarily and earn some respect. This business is NOT for everyone. Just because SELLS does NOT make it RIGHT.
http://www.videoproductiontips.com/ Lorraine

Short term gain verses long term gain. The eternal question. Humans tend to be short sighted.

All the current difficulties on Wall Street seem to stem from a short term mentality.

Getting back to the original analogy, McDonalds keeps their upsell from being “jail” by NOT doing this:

Do you want fries with that?
Do you want a mikshake with that?
Do you want a fried pie with that?
Do you want a second burger with that?
Do you want a salad with that?
etc., etc., etc.

Common sense tells you that is not a wise plan. Clerks would probably get punched out if they asked all those questions.

Lorraine
http://www.videoproductiontips.com Lorraine

Short term gain verses long term gain. The eternal question. Humans tend to be short sighted.

All the current difficulties on Wall Street seem to stem from a short term mentality.

Getting back to the original analogy, McDonalds keeps their upsell from being “jail” by NOT doing this:

Do you want fries with that?
Do you want a mikshake with that?
Do you want a fried pie with that?
Do you want a second burger with that?
Do you want a salad with that?
etc., etc., etc.

Common sense tells you that is not a wise plan. Clerks would probably get punched out if they asked all those questions.

Lorraine
http://www.internetmarketingsins.com Sylvie Fortin

@Lorraine – Excellent points! My guess is that because IMers rarely ever have to actually FACE their customers, it becomes easier to push the limits and do stuff that we instinctively know is just plain bad marketing.

The teenager at McDonald’s knows they must face their customer, face to face, and suffer the consequences of ill will.

Online marketers hide behind the relative anonymity of the computer screen, and as long as they don’t care about what people say about them, as long as they have a tough skin, they get away with it, but only for a while.

Eventually, it catches up, in the form of long term decline in revenue.

Ironically, the decline in revenue is rarely chalked up to “I may have done something wrong along the way”. Instead, they chalk it up to “I’m not selling aggressively enough”.

Weird!
http://marketersboard.com/ Sylvie Fortin

@Lorraine – Excellent points! My guess is that because IMers rarely ever have to actually FACE their customers, it becomes easier to push the limits and do stuff that we instinctively know is just plain bad marketing.

The teenager at McDonald’s knows they must face their customer, face to face, and suffer the consequences of ill will.

Online marketers hide behind the relative anonymity of the computer screen, and as long as they don’t care about what people say about them, as long as they have a tough skin, they get away with it, but only for a while.

Eventually, it catches up, in the form of long term decline in revenue.

Ironically, the decline in revenue is rarely chalked up to “I may have done something wrong along the way”. Instead, they chalk it up to “I’m not selling aggressively enough”.

Weird!
http://smartwomanguides.com/ Vicki Flaugher

@Sylvie Fortin – This is a great analogy. The “do you want this upsell, do you want this upsell, do you want this upsell?” reminds me of “Are we there yet?” ad nauseum from the petulant and insistent brat child in the back seat on a long road trip. It almost feels like being energetically forced into either a child role where you want to wrestle with the child at his level to argue that “I’m not touching you” or into a parental role where you either want to smack their mouth at worst or bellow out “Stop asking that or I’ll turn this car around and go home.” at the least. Either of those feelings are not attached to my credit card.

Vicki
http://smartwomanguides.com Vicki Flaugher

@Sylvie Fortin – This is a great analogy. The “do you want this upsell, do you want this upsell, do you want this upsell?” reminds me of “Are we there yet?” ad nauseum from the petulant and insistent brat child in the back seat on a long road trip. It almost feels like being energetically forced into either a child role where you want to wrestle with the child at his level to argue that “I’m not touching you” or into a parental role where you either want to smack their mouth at worst or bellow out “Stop asking that or I’ll turn this car around and go home.” at the least. Either of those feelings are not attached to my credit card.

Vicki
http://www.dawneworswick.com/ Dawn E. Worswick

I am really enjoying what I am learning on this forum.

I will NEVER buy from a marketer who holds me hostage and I will demand my money back. I have to say I have been fairly lucky on the internet and have found great products and people (like this forum) Thanks for having great ethics and teaching us lackeys the right way to sell.
http://www.dawneworswick.com Dawn E. Worswick

I am really enjoying what I am learning on this forum.

I will NEVER buy from a marketer who holds me hostage and I will demand my money back. I have to say I have been fairly lucky on the internet and have found great products and people (like this forum) Thanks for having great ethics and teaching us lackeys the right way to sell.
http://www.thesalescrafter.com/ Joseph Browns

Bottom line is: you gotta know your customers, you gotta meet your customers, you gotta deal with your customers and you gotta LOVE your customers. And then market accordingly, with all the talents and skills that you can muster or hire.
http://www.thesalescrafter.com Joseph Browns

Bottom line is: you gotta know your customers, you gotta meet your customers, you gotta deal with your customers and you gotta LOVE your customers. And then market accordingly, with all the talents and skills that you can muster or hire.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

I’m really disappointed with this post Michel. It really didn’t deliver
what you promised in the mail. You said you would be “BLUNT”
and yet you spent half of the post powdering Ed.

If this is being BLUNT then what is being ‘nice’ for you.

Anyway I should have known better.

No wonder you found Sylvie. She’s your opposite.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

I’m really disappointed with this post Michel. It really didn’t deliver
what you promised in the mail. You said you would be “BLUNT”
and yet you spent half of the post powdering Ed.

If this is being BLUNT then what is being ‘nice’ for you.

Anyway I should have known better.

No wonder you found Sylvie. She’s your opposite.
http://www.internetmarketingsins.com Sylvie Fortin

@Ray Edwards – I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.

You know Michel very well, or at least I thought you did. So your comment confuses me. It seems either tongue in cheek, or disrespectful. I’m not sure which.
http://marketersboard.com/ Sylvie Fortin

@Ray Edwards – I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.

You know Michel very well, or at least I thought you did. So your comment confuses me. It seems either tongue in cheek, or disrespectful. I’m not sure which.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

Originally Posted By Sylvie Fortin @Ray Edwards – I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.

You know Michel very well, or at least I thought you did. So your comment confuses me. It seems either tongue in cheek, or disrespectful. I’m not sure which.

If what you meant by “serious” is that I meant what I said I am.

If you thought that I intended to disrespect Michel, the answer is no.
Michel is one of the ‘nicest’ marketers I now online. I was just saying
that he was so nice that even when he disagreed he spent half the
time apologizing for having to disagree.

You are different Sylvie. And so I’m not surprise that you guys found each other.

And this was illustrated by the fact that you responded instead of Michel.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

Originally Posted By Sylvie Fortin @Ray Edwards – I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.

You know Michel very well, or at least I thought you did. So your comment confuses me. It seems either tongue in cheek, or disrespectful. I’m not sure which.

If what you meant by “serious” is that I meant what I said I am.

If you thought that I intended to disrespect Michel, the answer is no.
Michel is one of the ‘nicest’ marketers I now online. I was just saying
that he was so nice that even when he disagreed he spent half the
time apologizing for having to disagree.

You are different Sylvie. And so I’m not surprise that you guys found each other.

And this was illustrated by the fact that you responded instead of Michel.
http://www.videoproductiontips.com/ Lorraine

Not that it’s any of MY dang business, but…

Drawing a line between being blunt and being nice can be a fine one indeed. Different places for different people.

Being too blunt is a good way to turn a nice, respectful debate into an unproductive screaming match. Being too nice can leave real issues undiscussed.

Having said that, I too thought I’d find a bit more BLUNT when I got here but when you look at the lengthy discussion and how well many thoughts are brought out, seems to me the level was just right.

Some people think an argument isn’t worth having unless there’s lots of cussing and name calling. Now I am not saying that can’t be kind of fun, but if it can be done without it, so much the better. Being civil is often lost on the internet where one can be mean and nasty without having to fear being punched. I personally get tired of reading discussion boards where everybody tells everybody else what a stupid f*** they are.
http://www.videoproductiontips.com Lorraine

Not that it’s any of MY dang business, but…

Drawing a line between being blunt and being nice can be a fine one indeed. Different places for different people.

Being too blunt is a good way to turn a nice, respectful debate into an unproductive screaming match. Being too nice can leave real issues undiscussed.

Having said that, I too thought I’d find a bit more BLUNT when I got here but when you look at the lengthy discussion and how well many thoughts are brought out, seems to me the level was just right.

Some people think an argument isn’t worth having unless there’s lots of cussing and name calling. Now I am not saying that can’t be kind of fun, but if it can be done without it, so much the better. Being civil is often lost on the internet where one can be mean and nasty without having to fear being punched. I personally get tired of reading discussion boards where everybody tells everybody else what a stupid f*** they are.
Guest

This is all boiling down to HUMAN Nature, plain and simple. No matter how much you ask these crooked marketers to stop doing these things, they won’t change. Just like drug addicts rarely stop buying, stealing and doing even worse for drugs.

All you can do is recognize who they are and protect yourself from them and stay ahead of their new and sneakier tactics. Like the Google robots do or whatever they’re called.

My mother, myself, my grandmother, my sister, ALL of us would have responded as Sylvie did. That’s what WE DO. We only bring out the big guns when it’s absolutely necessary. Keeping him rested and as stress free as possible is better for us in the long run…working together. Doing your utmost to take care of the other person means true happiness for both..

I’ve never understood how some women can be so meek and submissive as if they can’t make a decision without calling her husband to the rescue….even about a flat tire? Obviously the opposite doesn’t scare her husband nor threaten him like it would some.

I like Sylvie’s whole attitude and mannerisms — reminds me of my Grandmother whom I take after. I hope to be just like Sylvie when I grow — oops I already am grown up.

P.S. : I too, was expecting more “bluntness” but I figured the time between writing the email and this blog posting was ample time for a “cooling off” period — so he wasn’t so fired up anymore.

Look on the bright side….more people got to read this entire mile long blog that might not have…we’re all sadistic in some way …looking for conflict, something exciting to watch or read about!! (LOL)
http://www.productioncarcare.com Leah

This is all boiling down to HUMAN Nature, plain and simple. No matter how much you ask these crooked marketers to stop doing these things, they won’t change. Just like drug addicts rarely stop buying, stealing and doing even worse for drugs.

All you can do is recognize who they are and protect yourself from them and stay ahead of their new and sneakier tactics. Like the Google robots do or whatever they’re called.

My mother, myself, my grandmother, my sister, ALL of us would have responded as Sylvie did. That’s what WE DO. We only bring out the big guns when it’s absolutely necessary. Keeping him rested and as stress free as possible is better for us in the long run…working together. Doing your utmost to take care of the other person means true happiness for both..

I’ve never understood how some women can be so meek and submissive as if they can’t make a decision without calling her husband to the rescue….even about a flat tire? Obviously the opposite doesn’t scare her husband nor threaten him like it would some.

I like Sylvie’s whole attitude and mannerisms — reminds me of my Grandmother whom I take after. I hope to be just like Sylvie when I grow — oops I already am grown up.

P.S. : I too, was expecting more “bluntness” but I figured the time between writing the email and this blog posting was ample time for a “cooling off” period — so he wasn’t so fired up anymore.

Look on the bright side….more people got to read this entire mile long blog that might not have…we’re all sadistic in some way …looking for conflict, something exciting to watch or read about!! (LOL)
http://www.MichelFortin.com Michel Fortin

@Lorraine – Thanks, Lorraine.

I find this kind of funny, because I wrote the blog first before I emailed the list. So just because I chose to use the word “blunt” in my email, it seems some people feel misled? Hmmm, I think I certainly was blunt, as in “candid,” “straightforward,” “critical,” “frank,” etc.

But if you expected me to hit someone over the head with some kind of “blunt” object, that’s just not my style. I prefer diplomacy, tact, respect, and civility. After all, isn’t that exactly what I’m being blunt about, specifically the lack thereof?

Something to think about.
http://www.michelfortin.com Michel Fortin

@Lorraine – Thanks, Lorraine.

I find this kind of funny, because I wrote the blog first before I emailed the list. So just because I chose to use the word “blunt” in my email, it seems some people feel misled? Hmmm, I think I certainly was blunt, as in “candid,” “straightforward,” “critical,” “frank,” etc.

But if you expected me to hit someone over the head with some kind of “blunt” object, that’s just not my style. I prefer diplomacy, tact, respect, and civility. After all, isn’t that exactly what I’m being blunt about, specifically the lack thereof?

Something to think about.
http://www.MichelFortin.com Michel Fortin

@Ray Edwards – Your reply is still cryptic to me, Ray. Sorry.
http://www.michelfortin.com Michel Fortin

@Ray Edwards – Your reply is still cryptic to me, Ray. Sorry.
Stuart Fraser

I’ve been through upsell hell a few times and here are my reflections.

Firstly cross-sells are far more palatable, “we also offer this which might interest you”. I don’t even mind if that is inside the so called jail between credit card details and order processing. What I find far more infuriating is being sold on something through great copy only to find out that I will be missing out on some of the benefits that I thought I was filling if I don’t buy or add the extra advanced blueprints etc. Again this comes down to the framing and the sales copy how I experience this.

After I am out of upsell hell I then allow one more opportunity for the marketer to win me back over, at least enough that I might try something again and that is by their customer service. If you quickly and without fuss refund when I ask I will try again. I might not think as highly of you any longer but I am willing to try again because it is painless to do so.

Compare this with my experience with two big name marketers I respected highly, and by this I also refer to their enterprise as them personally because their customer service reps do exactly that represent them. One of them was so bold as to call their customer service team “customer advocates” which only increased my fury when they failed to advocate on my behalf, at least a rep only has to be a representative. So lack of response to emails, lack of follow up, denial of appropriate service in a timely manner kills my trust and respect even though I might have more initial respect and trust than for other small timers.

So as long as you frame me correctly, care for me, respect me and are courteous and responsive I don’t mind upsell, cross sell even inside a jail. Because at the end of the day the character of the marketer will shine through and that makes a huge difference in how I feel about the jail experience.
Stuart Fraser

I’ve been through upsell hell a few times and here are my reflections.

Firstly cross-sells are far more palatable, “we also offer this which might interest you”. I don’t even mind if that is inside the so called jail between credit card details and order processing. What I find far more infuriating is being sold on something through great copy only to find out that I will be missing out on some of the benefits that I thought I was filling if I don’t buy or add the extra advanced blueprints etc. Again this comes down to the framing and the sales copy how I experience this.

After I am out of upsell hell I then allow one more opportunity for the marketer to win me back over, at least enough that I might try something again and that is by their customer service. If you quickly and without fuss refund when I ask I will try again. I might not think as highly of you any longer but I am willing to try again because it is painless to do so.

Compare this with my experience with two big name marketers I respected highly, and by this I also refer to their enterprise as them personally because their customer service reps do exactly that represent them. One of them was so bold as to call their customer service team “customer advocates” which only increased my fury when they failed to advocate on my behalf, at least a rep only has to be a representative. So lack of response to emails, lack of follow up, denial of appropriate service in a timely manner kills my trust and respect even though I might have more initial respect and trust than for other small timers.

So as long as you frame me correctly, care for me, respect me and are courteous and responsive I don’t mind upsell, cross sell even inside a jail. Because at the end of the day the character of the marketer will shine through and that makes a huge difference in how I feel about the jail experience.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

Originally Posted By Michel Fortin @Ray Edwards – Your reply is still cryptic to me, Ray. Sorry.

It was a long way of saying that my original post was tongue in cheek.
http://www.webcopy-writing.com/blog/ Ray Edwards

Originally Posted By Michel Fortin @Ray Edwards – Your reply is still cryptic to me, Ray. Sorry.

It was a long way of saying that my original post was tongue in cheek.
http://www.ecoverslab.com/ Hrvoje Livnjak

Damn, 10 upsells??? jeez.

Now I’m wondering Michel do you maybe have some sample of non marketing site that have a lot of upsells?
http://www.ecoverslab.com Hrvoje Livnjak

Damn, 10 upsells??? jeez.

Now I’m wondering Michel do you maybe have some sample of non marketing site that have a lot of upsells?
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